Mom Writer’s Literary Magazine

 

An Interview with Diane E. Levin, Ph.D and Jean Kilbourne, Ed.D.
by Kris Underwoood and Kim Girard

 

Emaciated and sexy Bratz dolls, Disney Princess, Barbie lingerie, the notorious thong underpants for 6-year-olds. Meantime, boys are encouraged to play violent video games centered on car crashes and boxing. Gender stereotyping abounds in kids’ toys and video games today. Most troubling is that all this trash is hitting kids at a younger age and an entire industry has formed around targeting these younger age groups.

In their new book, So Sexy So Soon, Jean Kilbourne and Diane Levin don’t just whine about these problems. They offer all sorts of tools to help parents talk to their children about what they see on TV and online, and process what happens to them on the playground. Because it’s not just your kid you have to worry about – it’s his or her peers who may have unlimited access to the very media that contributes to the sexualization of children.

For more information, please visit the authors’ sites: http://www.dianeelevin.com/  and http://www.jeankilbourne.com/; as well as the So Sexy So Soon site: http://www.sosexysosoon.com/.

MWLM: This is a timely topic and a lot has been written about the sexualization of children, the media, the Lolita syndrome, the thong underpants, etc. Why did you want to do your own book? 

JK: We started this three years ago when it was much less of a hot topic. We’ve been part of what has made it a hot topic too. I was on The Today Show two years ago – about the trend of little girls going to spas. About 3 1/2 years ago we decided to do this book. Diane wrote an article about it and sent it to me. I loved the title; I liked the article. I particularly liked the article. I realized that if I was to do something we should do it on early childhood. She’s an expert in that. We decided to do it together. When people talk about sexualizaion, they immediately think about girls and tweens. We thought we needed to talk about girls and boys. That’s why we did it.

MWLM: How long were you working on this book?

JK: Start to finish about two years – these days, we used the Net. Diane the early chapters – Diane’s stuff is the stories she has – anecdotal information. I’d been doing work on the image of women in advertising – this was the documentary film, Killing Us Softly.

MWLM: What surprised you the most when you were researching and writing?

JK: I didn’t know there was a lot of early childhood stuff – how young this is starting, how early. I’ve been tracking this. The extent at which porno has become so common. Everything about porn is acceptable in a way it wasn’t before. The thong panty – which is really a g-string. We have Jenna Jameson, a famous stripper, selling tube socks to kids. Porn used to be edgy and seedy, or you had to go to another part of town. Porn has become cool, very fashionable, even part of the fashion industry. Both Lauren Phoenix and Jenna have a line of clothing in stores. Strippers and people in porn films didn’t brag about their work. Now it’s a reasonable career aspiration for a woman. Stripper and erotic dancing are completely acceptable these days.

MWLM: You talk in the book about smoking and how a national campaign helped cut the smoking rates in this country. Do you think we can have a similar campaign against advertisers and marketers who target our children?

JK: The analogy is – what we need to do is treat this as a public health issue. We treated smoking as a public health issue. It was a huge difference and extremely successful. What we need to do with this issue is see this as a health issue and do many different things to make a safer environment for kids. We need to address advertisers. Some countries have banned all ads targeting children. This economy is not your grandfather’s Depression. We’re going to have to change our course. Maybe we can do it. I think capitalism in general is being shaken up. If you are going to take a public health approach – part of it has to be changes in public policy. Question is: how far do you go?

The real point is to not start. We’ve made tremendous progress: teaching sex education in schools, the trickle down of rap culture. We felt the issue has been hijacked by the right. Sexualization is confused with sexuality in general. There’s a group that wants to punish teens for being sexual. But they are. We felt this issue – teaching them with healthy relationships. Little kids – the most important thing they learn is empathy – someone who can’t have intimate relationships.

MWLM: Did you feel hopeful?

JK: Midway through the book I was so depressed I didn’t think I could continue. These are such huge forces: marketing, fashion industry, the entertainment industry. The point isn’t to sell our kids on sex – [It is] to sell them on shopping. Get them confused with sex early on – that’s awfully hard to untangle. Shopping is eroticized. I still think it is. I am a little more hopeful than I was. We’re on the verge of a paradigm shift because of what’s happening to the economy, to the planet; because we do have somebody in the White House who is a visionary. He isn’t going to get it all right; he’s someone who gets it.

MWLM: What are four or five things to take on Disney or the media in general?

JK: Join the Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood, and sign a petition. That is one specific step. In terms of your own life, more personally, be really familiar with the media [your daughter] uses and continue that – really listen to the music and play the video games. It’s really important to understand it – to talk about it authentically with her. Initiate conversations about what she’s seeing and how she experiences it - moments when you see an Abercrombie display at the mall or someone gives her a Bratz doll and she doesn’t want it. Start the conversation. Create the kind of environment in which the child feels safe to ask you anything. Kids are being exposed to things they’ve never seen before. If parents don’t talk about it they’ll talk to their peers. That cannot be a good thing. We’re not saying this is all up to parents. There’s no way to protect your kid entirely. What you can do: parents need to work together to see this as a public health problem. Don’t put the computer in their bedroom. Two thirds of American kids have TVs in their bedroom.  It’s important for your kids to know you will be monitoring what they’re watching. You aren’t snooping. You want them to be safe.

MWLM: Isn’t fashion cyclical? Won’t we come back to a more conservative style?

JK: Things are really different. Hooker-type fashions are out there now even for little kids, sold at Target. I hope it goes back to the preppy stuff. That looks good in comparison. Everyone who thinks that way needs to speak up so there will be a critical mass – they’ll say, ‘Enough!’ A lot of parents think it’s cute.  It happened gradually and people got desensitized to it. I remember 20 years ago the Calvin Klein commercial. People were outraged. They got over it. People got desensitized. Mostly I think it’s desensitization. When I give a lecture and people see one image after another, they gasp. I show them a bunch of ads. It’s all stuff that’s out there.

The whole way boys are taught to look at girls – to judge themselves – boys are supposed to always be on the make, be up for it. Hooking up is starting so early. Boys are also harmed by the whole macho image, which has gotten worse – tougher.

*****

MWLM: How did you get interested in doing this work? What is your background?

DL: It’s been a long process. My undergrad work was in child development and family relations at Cornell at a time that Head Start was invented. I got really interested in the idea that what happens to children when they are young plays a profound role throughout their life. All of my work since has connected to the interplay of what’s happening in society and what’s happening with children. When the women’s movement happened I got interested. I taught the first sex education class in Boston: how their development was being narrowed and channeled. First article I ever published was at Wellesley College. Then I went to Wheelock [College]. Soon after I got there, my whole mission was to improve the quality of life for children and families. I sponsored a conference a few years after I got there on the threat of nuclear threat on children and families. I was interested in long term research. What it did to one’s psychology - knowing the world could come to an end and be destroyed?

In the course of that they couldn’t find anyone to do a workshop on young children. We decided to explore how violence and nuclear threat came up and how kids understood them. We had our own memories. We did a workshop. We wrote a small booklet, looked at violence issues. What we found is that teachers are saying, ‘What about war play? How does that fit in? Why are you asking that question?’
I‘ve taught for five years and suddenly kids are obsessed with war play in ways they never were before. Now kids are sneaking around turning their crackers into Ls and using it as a gun. Something is different. We always had the approach that you can’t have an agenda. Television was deregulated in 1984. Before that there was a limit to children’s advertising on TV. Marketing toys and a TV show together – that was lifted under Reagan’s administration. Whole shows were created to promote products – He-Man, G.I. Joe, Transformers, Ninja Turtles, Power Rangers. It was the beginning of gender divisions. It undid all the progress of the women’s movement. The best selling toys within a year were media linked. The largest proportion were violent, both pre- and post-deregulation. There’s a difference. 

MWLM: Can you explain how it’s different?

DL: Star Wars was the beginning of the commercial culture for children. Whole departments were created to market to them.

[Fisher Price Barbie Doll with Mini Tickle Me Elmo] for kids three and up. Sesame Street is in this marketing frenzy the way public TV has never done before. A lot of my work is on commercial culture.

In 2000 I co-founded Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood. This book? It came about because originally I was asked to write a chapter of a book called [Childhood Lost: How American Culture Is Failing Our Kids] Jean and I presented a few times. She saw the chapter and said let’s do a book. I said let’s explore that. I felt it was really time to work on girls’ issues. People were getting all upset with adolescents but weren’t looking at what happened when they were young. It was starting much younger. Kids were being socialized in that world. Jean works with adolescents and we put the pieces together. I have a son in his mid 20s – exactly post- deregulation. Jean’s sons were pre-deregulation. We compared my experience with hers. That’s when we started interviewing other parents with a 10-year-old and a 4-year-old. With girls, it was pretty and sweet – it was never as successful as the violent stuff for boys. It didn’t take over their lives like the boys stuff did. Bratz, Disney princesses compete as well as the boys’ stuff does now. Boys’ stuff got more violent, more unfeeling.  Girls got pretty and sweet to sexy.

MWLM: What in your opinion is a non-sexualized childhood?

DL: We’re not saying that learning about sex is bad. It’s the lessons that they’re learning. It was much easier to write about violence. Everyone agrees violence is bad. The world isn’t doing a good job at being nonviolent. But when we sway you – want you to solve your problems without hurting each other – how do you help young children at their developmental level learn peaceful solutions to conflict, even though they see in media that’s not how it’s done? TV violence is exciting and grownups give you toys to put it in your play. Sex isn’t bad. But how do you explain that to a 4-, 5- or 6-year-old? I finally got the question. What should children be learning when they are young so they can have caring relationships when they grow up? I realized all the things Jean and I were looking at were undermining children’s abilities to have relationships. They are learning what I buy, what I wear and how I look determines my value. It’s how people judge me, its how I judge others – boys are learning they have to be tough and macho, ready to fight not rely on anyone else, that sex is where they perform like macho bullies. So, sexualized childhood is objectified childhood. A non-sexualized childhood is where boys and girls are allowed to develop fully, caught in stereotypes as little as possible, not gender-stereotyped. They’re learning about caring responsive empathetic relationships. Where there’s affection, connection, so as they grow up they’re able to take other people’s needs into consideration.

Every child goes this route in their own way. There’s no template. Parents will have a 3-year-old who’s completely into it and the 5-year-old is not. It does depend on formative experiences.

MWLM: Have you found that fighting this is extremely difficult?

DL: We say don’t fight this. The old approaches aren’t working for parents. It’s becoming much more – saying ‘no’ doesn’t solve the problem. Take a look at chapters 6 and 7 – what to do with younger kids; the chapters on adolescents; with the younger kids – 12 reasons why saying no isn’t enough. Yes, we should try to protect our kids and here are ways to do it. But some of it is going to get in no matter what. A lot of the what-to-do’s work with kids on various issues, help promote these values, help them to think about it. The caring adult is the best way that kids can learn – if parents just say no and get mad and punish and make kids feel bad, kids will go underground. The industry works very hard to create the cultural ethos. Certainly parents can do a better job but it’s not fair what we do to parents.

MWLM: How do you not give up?

DL: On the most basic level, I am old enough now. I no longer expect to create the perfect world for children but I think I can make it a little better than it ever would be. I think it’s always a series of compromises. I can talk about how things are better. The CCFC is a movement of people who are concerned about it and do things. Thousands of people get alerts maybe once a month – please sign this petition and sign this letter. There are a broad range of campaigns. The first real success was the Hasbro Pussycat Dolls rock group - a line of Pussycat dolls with clothing to go with it. We launched a campaign to Hasbro, worked closely with the press – Hasbro didn’t release the doll. Work with Boston Globe, etc. Child development expert banned from Hasbro. We try to turn difficulties into positive things for the movement. Another example: Kellogg’s junk food marketing. Kellogg’s stopped marketing junk food in preschools. Recent success – filed complaint with FTC marketing claims. FTC ruled that they should change their ads.

Advertisers – they can do whatever they want, whatever captures attention. We keep getting desensitized. They work with child development experts. In the late 80s it was clear they couldn’t develop these products if they didn’t know how to lure kids in. Transformers were violent but the notion of getting from -‘transforming’- one thing to another – is fascinating to 4-to 6-year-olds. They could see it going from snake to ball to pancake. Kids think in slide – not a movie. Transformers knew that. That’s why they made that. It became clear. James McNeal wrote a book on how to use child development to market. All the industry uses research on how to get kids to nag their parents.

LEGO said we had to do Star Wars because we’d lose the market without fighting toys. People develop two compartments in their head – professional and family – Spielberg and Lucas have made billions off kids; at the forefront on shaping marketing. They all say I wouldn’t take my 8-year-old to see Jurassic Park. But they sell products to 3-year-olds. It makes parents confused. If there are products for 3-year-olds they want to see the movie: bra and panty set for 4-year-olds for High School Musical; bikini underpants for kindergartners. Parents who try to resist face more and more nagging from their children. The industry says, ‘We wouldn’t make them if parents didn’t buy them.’ In the book we say you are trying to keep floodgates back as much as possible but it’s going to get in. Here are ways to talk to your child about it – to really be involved and connected. That’s so important when kids are younger than when they’re older and things are more serious. You are connected to them and you can help.

25 years ago – we knew adolescents don’t think in advance about risks and dangers – help them learn how to think.

MWLM: Are you finding that these challenges are across socio-economic lines?

DL: There are subsets – but I interviewed singe moms, urban areas, different races, immigrant children. It’s probably biased more toward middle class.

MWLM: There is criticism against your research; that adults of your generation are responsible for this and should look at themselves.

DL: They don’t know anything about children. Most important thing is to look through a child’s eyes. The biggest critics are the people who are dogmatic about their adult positions and can’t think about what this means from a different point of view. They are not advocates for children. I am. I testified before the [United States Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation] – around Columbine. The hearing was huge on marketing violence. They tried to get someone from industry to speak. They got someone from video games. They couldn’t get anyone from toy or media. Henry Jenkins was a hotshot in media studies. Industry wants him because everything he says helps them. There’s no evidence that kids learn bad things from media. No harm. His position comes from not knowing anything about children. His students agree with me. He has important things to say but doesn’t understand children.

People need help to understand how it is different today.

 

 

Kris Underwood has had poetry appear in several publications including MotherVerse, mamazine.com and Poetry Midwest. Other writing is featured at MotherVerse blog: Mothering Out Loud and Moms Speak Up. She writes simply because it helps keep her sane among the chaos. For more information, please visit her personal blog, Writing In The Mountains. Kim Girard is a Boston-based freelance writer. In her 20 years as a journalist she has written essays for publications including the San Francisco Chronicle Magazine, SFGate, mamazine and Slow Trains Literary Journal.